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David
Posts:499
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| 05/20/2009 9:42 PM |
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Jojo, seriously, you're my favorite person right now. I detest the Twilight series for the exact reasons you stated (and the fact that the prose is atrocious). Seriously, I am applauding you right now. I never thought I'd meet a girl who actually realized that. Most of the time when I mention the possible negative side effects of Twilight I'm met with a look of "You're absolutely crazy!" It's like some girls don't realize how their fantasies are 1) negatively effecting their expectations and 2) are unfaithful, if they are with someone (of course, guys have similar struggles). Seriously, massive props to you.
Twilight is a good example of how it often seems girls are more than willing to give into temptation, just as guys are.
Candie_grl, I understand, haha. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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JoJo
Posts:1657
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| 05/21/2009 3:05 AM |
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Honest, as soon as I found out about twilight, i was like "Thats a book i WONT be reading..." and I love reading books (Redwall, Tomorrow When The War Began, Left Behind) but they're more along the lines of war... lol
there are only a few chick things i don't detest... like pride and prejudice... cuz they both kinda despise each other and it's kinda random that they end up together in the end... so it's not the typical love story...
But yeah, i also prefer movies like "12 rounds", compared to "confessions of a shopoholic" idk chick movies tend to tick me off... idk do any other girls feel the same? idk... |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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Nicole
Posts:547
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| 05/21/2009 3:08 AM |
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| Twilight. Never read the series, and i don't plan on picking them up any time soon. I told my sister that I'd read them if she put a copy into my hands, but now i'm wishing i could take back my words. I've recently seriously took inventory of the books that i read. I am limiting, including my thoughts. I am not perfect, and I have had to come to God in repentance and ask for forgiveness and strength not to dwell on romantic thoughts that go way out of proportion. For the record though, I don't think it's wrong to read christian romances or watch romantic comedy BUT only if it's not going to negatively impact the way you think. (Honesty there are way too many movies out where couples have sex or even live together before marriage.) Yes girls do have romantic drives (maybe some more than others) but i think we girls just need to be CAREFUL of what thoughts we conjure up. The verse i like to repeat is Philippians 4:8, the verse that talks about things that are okay to dwell upon (whatever is noble, whatever is right...) For the record, I believe that God gave us romance for a reason, but not to abuse it. I myself have had to learn that the harder way. I do think it's wise for girls (and guys) to have high standards for their future spouse to meet, but not unrealistic-that's a little out of this world. Anyways, I basically think romance is a good thing, just not to abuse, and Twilight, ummm i'm trying to stay away from it. (*sigh* the media ruins a lot of girls' thinking, it's a sad thing) |
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whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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Adelynn
Posts:189
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| 05/21/2009 8:45 AM |
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| I guess that... I think a lot of Christian Romance books are a lot like Twilight, without the vampires. They all struggle and sometimes give in to some temptation, but the men are always perfect in their imperfection and usually everything that a girl could want.... the same with most movies. Most of the movie is spent "getting the girl" and in the end, everything ends happily ever after, together. I don't see why they aren't as hated by the male population as Edward, other then they know who Edward is =] |
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"... I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy..." Acts 2.17
What If His People Prayed? |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/21/2009 12:13 PM |
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They aren't as hated because the cultural expectation is for guys to pursue girls. Taking a girl to a romantic movie is a typical part of that pursuit (because it works... though it would be kind of like a girl taking a guy to strip club or something). Many moral standards get thrown by the wayside in guys pursuing girls, because, sadly and often, being completely moral doesn't work.
Pride and Prejudice is certainly of much greater quality than Twilight, but I do still have one thing to pick at it. Jojo, I would love your opinion on this. Oh, and just in case someone's been living under a rock and doesn't know the basic story of Pride and Prejudice, *SPOILER WARNING.*
As the story unfolds, it seems that Austen is trying to make the point that one should marry for love and not for money or looks. Every man in the story is judged on how good looking he is and how much money he makes. That is what every woman seems focused on, except for Elizabeth. She wants to marry for love, going so far as to refuse the hand of another man who would have been financially beneficial. Eventually, she does marry for love. The ironic thing to me is that the man she falls in love with just happens to be the richest and best looking guy in the entire story. It's a bit of a self-defeating message, and still seems to support the notion that looks and money are of extreme importance (the message being: if you marry for love, you'll undoubtedly get the other stuff too). |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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JoJo
Posts:1657
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| 05/21/2009 10:35 PM |
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No you're right... because of the day and age when it was set... especially for families that had NO males... it was customary to try to get your daughter married off to someone who was rich, so he could provide for her for her whole life (seeing as it was kinda like a curse to have no sons... "Fiddler On The Roof" is along the same lines...) and yes, she does marry the richest man... but she definitely didn't marry him for his money... actually, at the start, she despised how he looked down on her cuz she was "poor" and thought he was a stuck up rich person... (you know, stereotypes) but yeah...
Um... idk, maybe that is what she was saying, idk... but like her family totally didnt approve of him (even though he was wealthy...) and her dad was the one to let it happen. and idk really...
thats also why I love fiddler on the roof... cuz the man has 5 daughters, one gets married to her best friend (who's a poor tailor, despite her mother trying to get her to marry the rich butcher...) and one marry's a learnerd man (a scholar... who also has no money... though, her dad liked the idea that he was smart. mum still didn't approve...) and the third, well she married for love as well, but, she was jewish, and he was a christian, and... her dad wouldn't accept them and said "Chava is dead to us." (mum and sisters still talked to her though...) but yeah. (the last 2 were too young to get married...)but yeah... |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/22/2009 1:06 AM |
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The woman getting married to a rich man for financial support is indicative of an interesting thing you see among men even now. A man named Hite once a did a very comprehensive study on male sexuality (not just the mechanics of it, but how men feel about every level of sexuality - this includes the romantic element of a relationship, the pursuit, the every day life of being married, etc, all of it). One of the biggest growing complaints among men is that they are getting very tired of being treated as a meal-ticket.
It's hard for met to get past the irony I see in Pride and Prejudice. Elizabeth rejects marrying a man solely for money or looks yet marries the richest and best looking. You can't make the claim "marry for love" when you have the character do that. I don't know. I will say, since this sort of started when you mentioned Twilight, Pride and Prejudice is of a much superior quality to Twilight, particularly in terms of prose. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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emilyjanelle
Posts:510
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| 05/22/2009 10:49 AM |
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well...
I'm confused, yet again.
I've read Pride and Prejudice and seen the BBC 6 episode version and 2004 version. sure, Elizabeth detests the very sight of Darcy in the beginning, but then learns to love him. not for his money, though everyone around her thinks that's the reason. of course it's hard to get past the irony because... that's the whole point! haha.
and YEAH, P&P is loads better than Twilight! *gags* I would have to be strapped down with my eyelids glued open to watch that crap. hah. |
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You may as well come quiet.
- Police Maxim |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/22/2009 11:52 AM |
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| I sense from your tone that you think the irony is a good thing. For me, personally, I find that the message of "marry for love" is significantly lessened by the fact that she ends up with what she resists - looks and money. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Nicole
Posts:547
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| 05/22/2009 7:32 PM |
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Well, i love Pride and Predjudice, and I can see your point David. While i do agree with marrying for love, i suppose the fact that wealth came with Darcy does undermine the love part a bit.  But for the record, it's a classic that i love.
As far as Edward goes in the Twilight series, I would not know a thing about him. You can look to God as a role model though.  I believe just as long as we strive to be like Him, you'll be fine. No need to be perfect. No one expects you to be. |
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whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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emilyjanelle
Posts:510
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| 05/24/2009 12:55 PM |
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| well yeah, David, of course the irony is the good thing... in only that instance, though. that's the entire point of the story. she hates him at first, then learns to love him. and you're reading/watching it like, "wait, she's supposed to despise even being in a room with him! what's happening here?!" haha. I don't think the message of "marrying for love" is lessened at all. it's actually strengthened, because it says, "love conquers all". all differences, all qualms, everything. Elizabeth could care less if Darcy was a pauper or a prince, in the end, she just wants him. |
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You may as well come quiet.
- Police Maxim |
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maddiegirl
Posts:210
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| 05/24/2009 8:20 PM |
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yes guys thank you so much --- without you guys, i wouldnt know a lot of hte things i kno now. we are blessed to have ur insight & thoughts . thank u.  |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/25/2009 1:21 AM |
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Posted By emilyjanelle on 05/24/2009 12:55 PM
well yeah, David, of course the irony is the good thing... in only that instance, though. that's the entire point of the story. she hates him at first, then learns to love him. and you're reading/watching it like, "wait, she's supposed to despise even being in a room with him! what's happening here?!" haha. I don't think the message of "marrying for love" is lessened at all. it's actually strengthened, because it says, "love conquers all". all differences, all qualms, everything. Elizabeth could care less if Darcy was a pauper or a prince, in the end, she just wants him.
But wouldn't the message have been more potent had she ended up with a poor man? Or a non-good looking man? It's like Austen at first tries to say, "You shouldn't judge a man on such things. You should want a man because you love him." And then she goes and pulls the rug out and marries Elizabeth to the man who is the best looking and richest. The message can't go both ways.
Also, another thing I've wondered is if the story doesn't in fact reinforce in girls the desire for antagonism early on in the initial part of the relationship. This essentially reinforces the "bad boy" as desirable and the "decent guy" (who's actually going to be nice to you at first) as undesirable. This is potentially problematic. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Locke
Posts:223
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| 05/25/2009 10:14 AM |
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It might've been, but if she's marrying the man because she loves him, it shouldn't matter either way - otherwise it's an ideology, not a standard. And even more to the point, there's nothing any of us can do about it because Jane Austen has been dead for centuries.
As far as encouraging antagonism early on, I don't think so. Reading the book, all it looks like to me a girl who dislikes how rude a man is to her, and reciprocates in kind. It's not presented as something good at all. |
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It is trifles that make the sum of life. |
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Locke
Posts:223
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| 05/25/2009 10:17 AM |
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| Excuse me, that line should read, "otherwise it's an ideology, not a principle." |
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It is trifles that make the sum of life. |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/25/2009 11:46 AM |
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Posted By Locke on 05/25/2009 10:14 AM
It might've been, but if she's marrying the man because she loves him, it shouldn't matter either way - otherwise it's an ideology, not a standard. And even more to the point, there's nothing any of us can do about it because Jane Austen has been dead for centuries.
As far as encouraging antagonism early on, I don't think so. Reading the book, all it looks like to me a girl who dislikes how rude a man is to her, and reciprocates in kind. It's not presented as something good at all.
In the real world, perhaps. But this is fiction, and fiction has messages. The supposed intended message is greatly reduced by the character marrying who she does. Austen might be dead, but the books influence isn't.
The story as a whole is a romantic positive for most girls. The antagonism at the beginning is part of the romantic process. As such, it is part of the romantic positive. Intellectually, no it shouldn't reinforce anything. In practice, however, I see enough girls who respond to some sort of antagonism that I must wonder if themes like that do have that influence. For instance, have you ever wondered why girls respond better romantically to guys who tease them than to guys who are just nice to them? "Teasing" isn't the same thing Mr. Darcy did, but it does fall into the antagonism category.
I love dissecting books, haha.
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Locke
Posts:223
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| 05/25/2009 5:41 PM |
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| Real life has messages too, and not all fiction carries one (at least, not important ones). As far as girls responding better to guys who tease them, no, I haven't really noticed that, because the girls in my life typically respond better to kindness. I remember one girl who I hardly teased at all until after we already had a very close friendship, and she responded amazingly well to my kindness to her. |
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It is trifles that make the sum of life. |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/25/2009 7:21 PM |
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Did she respond well romantically? Most girls respond well to kindness in a friendship way, but that potentially puts you into the dreaded "friends zone."
I don't mean teasing in a mean way. I mean teasing in a flirtatious way. The guys I've seen who have the best luck with girls are the ones who begin flirting (read: showing interest) practically from the get-go. This is confirmed in FYMO when they talk about why girls go for "bad boys." Teasing, which, whether kind or no,t is by nature antagonistic, is a huge part of that. Of course, the problem with this approach is that it's always better to get to know a girl before getting romantically involved at any level. Nonetheless, better success with girls can be had by teasing (flirting with) them from the get-go; in never letting yourself become "just a friend" or "like a brother" to them. This is in some ways quite sad, but it is true.
Of course there will (thankfully) be exceptions to this, as it sounds like you have experienced. If so, more power to you, and I'm a little jealous  .
Back to Pride and Prejudice... I was talking about the book with my mother, and she made a good point. If we flip the perspective around from Elizabeth to Mr. Darcy, everything changes. He is most certainly marrying for love, going so far as to marry someone well below his social class. He most likely would have lost quite a bit of social standing and societal respect from his choosing to love and be with her. And, to be truthful, she may have had to deal with many accusations of being a gold-digger. While I still think my original point stands, this new perspective is, at least to me, very thought-provoking.
Haha, I think I've gone way too analytical here, like I usually do. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Adelynn
Posts:189
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| 05/25/2009 9:52 PM |
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"I mean teasing in a flirtatious way."
You hit it. Most guys don't tease unless they are comfortable with a girl (it seems), or very flirtatious anyway/have a teasing personality. Actually, a lot of closer relationships involve more teasing than do surface or basic friendships. |
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"... I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy..." Acts 2.17
What If His People Prayed? |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/26/2009 1:25 AM |
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There is a very real challenge for guys here that I briefly mentioned above. With most girls, simply being nice to them doesn't in any way influence them to like us. It might make them want to be friends with us, but more often than not being friends with them is a surefire way to ensure that they'll never be romantically interested in us.
Quick question for the ladies. Why is that? Why do most girls seem that they can't ever like a guy if he takes the time to get to know her before making any romantic gestures (such as flirting)? I know this is not always the case, but it is enough of the time to warrant the question.
Thing is, getting to know each other as friends before entering into anything romantic is the best way to go about relationships. You can realize if someone is worth your time before "those" feelings get involved, upping the emotional ante. But, as I said, this is often a great way to get girls to like you... as a friend/brother/lamp. But if we go completely the other way and focus entirely on hitting on and attracting girls, we will more likely than not develop into the kind of person who can't actually maintain a girl's interest. We become the "bad boy" (who is attractive at first but ends up hurting the girl in the end). The challenge for guys, then, is to get to know a girl while not letting ourselves become too much of a friend / brother figure, which requires some form of antagonism (such as flirtatious teasing).
So, for the girls, please tell me why I'm wrong. I don't want to be right about this.
One more thing for the girls... It seems to me that "bad boys" have all of the initial attractive qualities (confident [read: arrogant], flirtatious for flirting's sake, appropriately antagonistic, mysterious, etc.), but once past the initial stages they possess all of the qualities that push a girl away (arrogant [read: what appeared as confidence], flirtatious for flirting's sake, antagonistic, mysterious etc.); and the "nice guys" possess many of the negative initial qualities (a willingness not to engage in the romantic before the right time, emotionally available, able to be known, humility), but once past the initial stages possess many of the qualities that keep a girl interested (a willingness not to engage in the romantic before the right time, emotionally available, able to be known, humility). Am I completely wrong here? Give me your thoughts, those of the feminine persuasion. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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