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artyprincess
Posts:224
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| 08/21/2009 9:30 PM |
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| I meant to add that I would wear a shirt and shorts in public, but if it were just around girls or family, I might skip the shirt unless I needed it for sun protection (I burn easily....) |
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God Can. |
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David
Posts:499
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| 08/21/2009 9:54 PM |
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The only point I'm trying to make is that I think we're looking at this a bit too legalistically, based on a as-of-yet defined concepts of modesty and lust. If you define lust as a guy checking out a girls body and modesty as dressing in a way that will not cause guys to do this, then you need to wear a box and hood. Aside from the box idea, there is nothing you can wear, swimsuit or regular clothes, that will cause a guy not to check you out. I repeat, there is nothing you can wear to cause a guy not to check you out. Here's the question though, is his checking you out really a bad or lustful thing? If you buy into the teachings of the "Every... Battle" books and the teachings of most churches, if a guy ever even looks at a girls chest, butt, legs, stomach, etc., because he finds them attractive, he is automatically lusting. I find that thinking to be not only incorrect but also absurd.
It's impossible to talk specifics in cases like this. What is an acceptable skirt length? An inch above the knee? Three? Five? Why? If you can pick a spot, why that spot? Why not an inch longer or shorter? With swimsuits, are bikinis not appropriate but one pieces are? Why? You can still see the female form in a one piece. If you wear shorts and a shirt, your clothing will cling to you. Even if you pull it away from you, it will still cling to you more than it would were it dry. And, to top all this off, even if you somehow could hide your figure, there is still the fact that you are now wet. You know how your hair slicks back to your head when it's wet? A lot of guys find that sexually attractive. This sort of too-specific thinking is fraught with inconsistencies.
Before any discussion of modest dress can be had, there are a few things we need to define. What does modesty actually mean? What does lust actually mean? |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Locke
Posts:223
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| 08/22/2009 2:09 AM |
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| I've read several of the Every… Battle books, and I didn't get the impression you did at all. |
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It is trifles that make the sum of life. |
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David
Posts:499
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| 08/22/2009 11:09 AM |
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| That's interesting. It was either you or Koudee who told me about those books' recommendation to "bounce the eyes." You know, "if your eyes happen to bounce on to that part of her body, just have them bounce off," or something like that. How is that not in line with the impression - that to look with desire or a sense of attraction at a woman's body (though, for some reason, not her face) is automatically lustful - I've received? |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Locke
Posts:223
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| 08/22/2009 12:06 PM |
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| To me it sounds like you're taking that thought farther than it really goes - that if you let your eyes linger on a girl ever that you're lusting. I don't think so. I think the intent behind bouncing your eyes is not to say that if you look at a girl with attraction you automatically lust - but to honor God with your thought life by not allowing even a hint of lust into your mind. Does that mean you can't look at a girl and say, "Wow, she's really pretty"? No. |
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It is trifles that make the sum of life. |
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Rose
Posts:135
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| 08/22/2009 12:16 PM |
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| David- I'm a little confused about what you're saying. So you think that it doesn't really matter what girls wear to the pool? That every type of swimsuit is equally "immodest" in terms of guys being attracted to girls? I don't know... I guess I've just not thought of it that way. And another thing- do you respect girls more who try to cover up by wearing a tankini and skirt or whatever more than a girl in a bikini, even though they are equally tempting in your eyes?
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God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of POWER, of LOVE, and of SELF-DISCIPLINE. So do not be afraid to testify about our LORD.
~2 Timothy 1:7-8 |
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David
Posts:499
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| 08/22/2009 10:00 PM |
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To me it sounds like you're taking that thought farther than it really goes - that if you let your eyes linger on a girl ever that you're lusting.
I'm taking the logic of the thinking as far as it actually goes to prove that the thinking is incorrect.
I don't think so.
Nor do I.
I think the intent behind bouncing your eyes is not to say that if you look at a girl with attraction you automatically lust - but to honor God with your thought life by not allowing even a hint of lust into your mind. Does that mean you can't look at a girl and say, "Wow, she's really pretty"? No.
We do know that you can lust while looking at a girls body, my question is at what point does it become lust? The Every... Battle books, at least to me, give the impression that your lusting as soon as you think, "Wow, nice chest." I don't think that is the point of lust, though.
David- I'm a little confused about what you're saying. So you think that it doesn't really matter what girls wear to the pool? That every type of swimsuit is equally "immodest" in terms of guys being attracted to girls? I don't know... I guess I've just not thought of it that way.
What I'm trying to say is that before we can talk about what swimsuits are modest or immodest we actually have to define modesty and, by extension, lust. When you say you want to dress modestly, what does that mean to you?
And another thing- do you respect girls more who try to cover up by wearing a tankini and skirt or whatever more than a girl in a bikini, even though they are equally tempting in your eyes?
I will always respect girls who make an effort to dress modestly. I might seem a little harsh in this thread, but the truth is I have a huge amount of respect for all you girls for even worrying about if what you are wearing is modest, not to mention actually making an effort to dress modestly. Though dressing provocatively might be more initially physically attractive, I am always more attracted to girls who value dressing modestly. In fact, I have an instinctive distrust of girls that dress with provocative intent. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Rose
Posts:135
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| 08/22/2009 11:31 PM |
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| Thanks for explaining. btw David, you should be a lawyer. That or the president. You're very articulate. lol sorry I'm tired. |
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God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of POWER, of LOVE, and of SELF-DISCIPLINE. So do not be afraid to testify about our LORD.
~2 Timothy 1:7-8 |
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Adelynn
Posts:516
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| 08/23/2009 2:38 PM |
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haha I just went back and read what I wrote before: "I am judged not only by having a body worth showing off, but because I want to."
Hmm, I think I meant something more along the lines of I feel condemned for not being ashamed of and trying desperately to hide my body. I asked the question in the first place because I don't really understand the conservative viewpoint on bathing suits in the first place... as a ballet dancer I became used to girls showing off their bodies, so it doesn't even bother me until I notice someone "noticing" me, especially with condemnation in their gaze. I'm not sure how many other people here other than Jojo have any experience with performing, especially dance, but the people in those activities are... liberal... so growing up in it and then becoming part of these conservative homeschool groups is out of my comfort zone. |
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"Angel of Mercy, how did you find me? How did you pick me up again? Angel of Mercy, how did you move me, why am I on my feet again?" -One Republic |
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Zachariah
Posts:6
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| 08/23/2009 6:16 PM |
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| Hey ppl ik i haven't been here in awhile but seriously girls just need 2 chill and guys for that matter we are in the world...hense there is sin....lust=sin so theres going 2 be lust no matter what a girl wheres....no that being said i personally advocate tankinis...ya imma guy bikinis are great and for the most part i rele dnt think there is anything wrong w/ them its all based on how the ppl viewing you are seeing it...now personally i just dont wear shirts in the summer i mean for real its summer and ya i kina admit i like 2 show off sometimes but its all based on ur audiance....now if im on vacation w/ a bunch of girls, my g/f isn't there il be like ok im putting a beater on and i wnt swim but if im home w/ the guys its fine...lol...now girls if u can change that 2 a girl version and just watch what u wear and try 2 stay away from strings i think you'll be o k...but guys are gonna check you out no matter what thats just our nature....and David you are sooooo right if i look at a girls chest or butt its not a lust! lol wow that was way 2 long....hopefully it wasnt confusing |
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Scifi
Posts:68
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| 08/23/2009 9:10 PM |
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There's this ad on New Zealand TV that has this guy in speedos.
It shows just how similar to undies speedos (and for the relevance of this forum, bikinis) are. |
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"The purpose of Christianity is not to avoid difficulty, but to produce a character adequate to meet it when it comes. It does not make life easy; rather it tries to make us great enough for life." -- James L. Christensen
"For a small reward, a man will hurry away on a long journey; while for eternal life, many will hardly take a single step." Thomas a' Kempis (1380-1471)
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Scifi |
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Scifi
Posts:68
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| 08/23/2009 9:13 PM |
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| The address of it on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-Lx2ihpGbc |
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"The purpose of Christianity is not to avoid difficulty, but to produce a character adequate to meet it when it comes. It does not make life easy; rather it tries to make us great enough for life." -- James L. Christensen
"For a small reward, a man will hurry away on a long journey; while for eternal life, many will hardly take a single step." Thomas a' Kempis (1380-1471)
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Scifi |
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Adelynn
Posts:516
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| 08/23/2009 9:48 PM |
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| eh, I think speedo's and bikinis cause different reactions... guys tend to enjoy looking at girls in bikini's, and all my gfs and I go "ewwww" at just the mention of a speedo. I'm not entirely sure why the difference |
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"Angel of Mercy, how did you find me? How did you pick me up again? Angel of Mercy, how did you move me, why am I on my feet again?" -One Republic |
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David
Posts:499
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| 08/23/2009 10:23 PM |
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| The slight disparity of the emphasis of visual stimulation inherent to each gender + current cultural mores = guys like bikinis, girls think speedos are gross. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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JoJo
Posts:1654
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| 08/24/2009 4:48 PM |
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HAHAHAHA Simon, that ad was so crack up when it first came out 
"Togs, Togs.... UNDIES UNDIES UNDIES!!!" haha my friends and I still say it when some guy comes out in speedo's
but yes, if you can't see the water, you are basically wearing undies...
and I know most people wouldn't go around wearing undies only...
that being said... I still wear bikini's but I wear shorts and a rash vest (surfing top thingy for those who don't know...) and I don't own a string bikini... not after my friends made up a song about string bikini's and it's turned me off for life |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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Nicole
Posts:547
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| 08/29/2009 1:55 AM |
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Okay the dictionary.com definition of modesty is this: freedom from vanity, boastfulness; regard for decency of behavior, speech, dress...; simplicity, moderation.
In regard to David's post about if girls didn't want guys to notice their bodies, then wearing a box and hood would be the solution, I would think that as long as girls are trying their best to be modest (in what they wear) and even going the extra mile (i.e wearing a T-shirt over a bikini, or a rash guard over your swimsuit, wearing a modest tank top under your V-neck, layering to cover up...) to be modest, then I think it's fine. Luckily I've never been a situation where a guy was trying to hit on me.  But back to the topic; in all reality, how you define modesty is really up to you, i mean in the sense of how you dress and act accordingly.
In my personal definition of lust, I'd have to say it's when you start to let your mind linger on inappropriate thoughts about the opposite sex; but for guys it's different than for us girls. We're humans, guys and girls. How can we not notice each other? Guy notices cute girl. girl notices cute guy. Period. I'd like to think that's totally normal. Now when you start fantasizing... then i think that's where you might define lust. Am i making any sense? I'm sorry if i offended anyone. :/ |
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whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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David
Posts:499
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| 08/29/2009 10:53 AM |
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I would think that as long as girls are trying their best to be modest (in what they wear) and even going the extra mile (i.e wearing a T-shirt over a bikini, or a rash guard over your swimsuit, wearing a modest tank top under your V-neck, layering to cover up...)... But back to the topic; in all reality, how you define modesty is really up to you, i mean in the sense of how you dress and act accordingly.
What definition of modesty are you using when you say "try their best to be modest"? If it's your own personal definition, as you say that is what modesty is, then what if a girl's definition of modesty is to wear a rather tiny string bikini? You might be tempted to say, "Well that wouldn't be modest." However, you also just said that "how you define modesty is really up to you," so you can't really say her definition is wrong because that is how she personally defines it. To say she is wrong is to appeal to an objective standard of modesty not based on personal opinion. Once you do that, you have to be able to say what that objective standard is.
In my personal definition of lust, I'd have to say it's when you start to let your mind linger on inappropriate thoughts about the opposite sex
What is inappropriate? If a guy dwells on a girl's chest, is he being inappropriate? If so, why?
Now when you start fantasizing... then i think that's where you might define lust.
What kind of fantasy? If I meet a girl and start to like her, if I fantasize about taking her out on a date, is that lustful? If I fantasize that on some future date I end up kissing her, is that lustful? If, when I'm not around her, I dwell on all aspects of her physical beauty (which could be called fantasizing), am I being lustful? Unless all fantasy is lustful, where is the line between non-lustful fantasy and lustful fantasy?
I think you're on the right track. If could answer some of my questions, that would be cool. Thanks Also, I'm not trying to be mean or anything. Sorry if I come across that way. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Lindsey
Posts:70
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| 08/29/2009 2:20 PM |
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I think,if you ware a bikini with shorts that are a good length then it should be ok.I dont see why people ware tops over there bikinis,and bord shorts?I can see why us girls get bikinis,because you see a really pretty one and you got to have it,but if you are going to cover it up with bord shorts and a top.Then why even get it if you cant see it.Why not just get a one piece if you want to cover yourself up more?Its best to even it out by wareing a bikini top with some shorts that are a good length or just wareing a top over your bikini top.
-Lindsey* |
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JoJo
Posts:1654
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| 08/30/2009 12:31 AM |
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| Personally for me, I wear my bikini normally when guys aren't around but I actually think one pieces are more immodest cuz, well, for one, they're never really thick enough and it reminds me of Gymnastics leotards which are hideous and uncomfortable, so that's why I don't wear one peices... |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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artyprincess
Posts:224
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| 08/30/2009 12:44 AM |
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Lindsey - it comes down to what bikinis actually are. You wouldn't wear your underwear around in public, regardless of how pretty it is, would you? But look at the amount of material in your bikini and compare it to the amount in your underwear. Not much of a difference, is it?
One pieces are harder to change out of, whereas bikinis are easier (and generally cost less, too). And also take into account the fact that the designers of bikinis (and immodest fashion also) are often guys who want to make girls look 'hot'. What you think is a cute bikini may be something totally different to a guy.
For me, it is easier to buy a bikini and wear it under a top and shorts. I don't buy the daggiest bikini I can find, even if I'm the only one who can see it, I know it's pretty.
I hope that answered your questions. Yes, people look at me strange when I walk in to a pool fully dressed, but I know I'm doing my bit to not cause a distraction. |
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God Can. |
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