| Author |
Messages |
|
Noames23
Posts:42
 |
| 06/01/2009 9:06 AM |
|
How can you tell if you are being too forward with a guy? I have been too forward with guys before and it hasn't gone too well. I want to trust God and His timing, and I don't want to flirt or ANYTHING! How can I tell if I am flirting or not. I like this guy, and I can't see what I'm doing, so I might inadvertently be communicating to him that I want something more than friendship (which I do, but that's beside the point, plus I'm only 14). Any thoughts?  |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 9:32 AM |
|
| By the way, to explain the situation a bit more, I am from a very conservative family, have never dated, never had any guy explicitly express interest in me, am homeschooled, have mostly homeschooled friends, and go to a very solid church. |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
David
Posts:499
|
| 06/01/2009 11:51 AM |
|
A few questions...
Do you want to date right now? Not necessarily this guy, but just in general.
When you say you are waiting on God's timing, does this mean that you want to sit back, never express any romantic interest in anyone, yet have a great guy come along and sweep you off your feet?
How does "God's timing" affect our free will? How specific is His plan for us? Does He have a plan for the color socks you chose this morning? |
|
Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
emilyjanelle
Posts:510
|
| 06/01/2009 1:05 PM |
|
haha... yeah, David has a point. everything is a two-way street. we have free will, but God is in control. it's a tough thing to call.
you could say, "my future husband's going to have to do ALL the pursuing, ALL the asking, everything!" some girls get pretty spastic about that, though. they won't even have friendly conversations with a guy if they think it could never be anything more than a friendship. IMO, that's a silly mindset to have. I have a few guys friends, only a couple close ones, but none of them are serious "prospects." is that okay? for me, sure. then again, for every single girl on the planet? no, probably not. having alot of guy friends comes with it's ups and downs.
on the other hand, is it okay to be going on random dates left and right? flirting with guys (in person AND online) constantly without any real commitment? nope. you have to ride that line, y'know? what are your parents okay with? you've said you come from a very conservative background. so what does that mean to you? just saying, "I'm conservative so I'm not going to date", really isn't ligit. back yourself up biblically and by your own convictions. |
|
You may as well come quiet.
- Police Maxim |
|
|
David
Posts:499
|
| 06/01/2009 2:15 PM |
|
/\
What she said. |
|
Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 2:18 PM |
|
@David: I don't want to date right now, because I (like any girl my age, or even older) can get very emotionally involved, and I'm not going to pursue any guy (because that's the guy's job), but I am going to remain available for when God leads the right man to pursue me in His timing. I am (or at least I try) to be friendly and Christ-like to everyone (though I do have a sarcastic sense of humor). As to expressing romantic interest, I wouldn't want to do that if he didn't like me at all. The guy in question is friendly to all girls, and he is also very conservative, and doesn't flirt with girls, so it is therefore hard to discern where his affections lie, which is one of the reasons I don't want to be too forward. As Joshua Harris says, I want to match my affection with his, so I am just friendly right now. As to free will, we can choose whether we want to do God's will or not, and if we trust in that, amazing things happen. Thank you for the very good questions. Thanks for making me (and everyone else) think.
@emilyjanelle: I have many guy friends, but only a few that I really hang out with on a regular basis. I only have email (not facebook or myspace or anything), and I'm not allowed to chat yet, so I don't have any opportunities for flirting online anyways (not that I really would). During the school year, however, I see this guy at least four times a week. Over the course of the four years that we've lived here, we've (as in our family) gotten to know him (and his family) pretty well. Furthermore, the whole environment with our closer circle of friends (him included) is very God-centered, and not very focused on dating. Does all that make sense? It's a little hard to explain because it's a little more complex than I'm making it sound |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 2:20 PM |
|
"letting God find the man I'm supposed to spend the rest of my life with 'cause I'm done trying."
This is a good way to explain it (see emilyjanelle's profile) |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
David
Posts:499
|
| 06/01/2009 2:58 PM |
|
Well, what I think is too forward and what you think is too forward might differ. I would say that once you are ready to enter into a dating relationship, if you've met a guy that you feel is the right one, dont' necessarily just sit around and wait for him to do everything. Guys often need subtle clues and hints that our approaches are working, and if we receive none we often give up before things become overtly romantic.
"As to free will, we can choose whether we want to do God's will or not, and if we trust in that, amazing things happen."
I suppose my question is, how specific is God's will? Is it so specific that He cares which color socks I wear or if I decide to go with a goattee and not a beard? If it's not that specific, then how specific? Is it possible that, in fact, God's will doesn't include one single, specific person He wants you to be with, and no one else? Thing is, if that's the way His will works, yet we also have the ability to choose freely, what if God wanted you two to meet at a certain college, but only you choose to go there? My point is, at least according to how I interpret the notion of God's will and the concept of our free will, I don't think God has one specific person in mind for us that He is going to guide onto our doorstep. I think we have a lot of say in who we choose to date and marry, and this should be done based on Godly principles. As such, a more active role in this process might be necessary (this being especially relevant to girls). This is one of the reasons why I often dislike the phrases like "a girls heart should be so wrapped up in God that a guy has to search Him to find her." It's not that I disagree that both people should be God-focused and spiritually mature, it's that it implies the guys must do 100% of the work. This is neither fair nor practical. Girls must play an active role in finding a future mate, even during the initial stages of said practice. |
|
Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 3:31 PM |
|
| Okay, well, first of all, I go to a Presbyterian church, which (as you most likely know) don't tend to emphasize free will. In fact, the pastor doesn't even believe that free will is biblical (I don't know all of his reasons, I just heard it from someone). Therefore, I tend to be more sympathetic to the Calvinistic view of free will (we didn't start out at a Presbyterian church, though). Having said that, I believe that God is in complete control and has a plan for everyone. He knows what everyone is going to do and who everyone is going to marry. If we make a wrong turn somewhere, He can work through those circumstances for the better. If we do decide to marry someone on a whim, or for romance, if we trust in Him and seek guidance, He will make it turn out for the better. (Romans 8:28) However, if we decide to wait on His timing and wait for opportunities that come up, we will find that it is much better. For example, a couple at a local college found each other in the same places, serving together, most of the time. They found that they had many similarities and were very compatible. Neither of them were looking to date and both wanted to wait to date, but God had other plans. Free will? I think not! (no offense or anything to you, but that is what I believe) |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
David
Posts:499
|
| 06/01/2009 4:17 PM |
|
No offense taken. I realize there are many interpretations of free will and God's nature. I always enjoy a good philosophical debate, so I hope you don't mind if I put forth a rebuttal.
My problem with the idea that we have no free will is that Hume's problem of evil is then a valid argument. The only good, congruent response to that argument relies on the existence of free will. Take that away, and God is a cruel, unjust, malevolent, and evil. If there is no free will (I assume you also mean for angels? if not, then how can we know that angels have free will and humans don't?), then who is at fault when someone rapes, tortures and murders a child? Certainly not the perpetrator, for he had no choice in the matter since he did not have free will. Why would God need to even become Jesus and sacrifice Himself if He had been at the helm of all that had happened? Certainly not to teach us anything, for if we have no free will we have no capacity to learn or change, except for how God directly affects us. Without free will, there really is no sense of self.
"For example, a couple at a local college found each other in the same places, serving together, most of the time. They found that they had many similarities and were very compatible. Neither of them were looking to date and both wanted to wait to date, but God had other plans. Free will? I think not!"
I see free will everywhere in that situation. They chose to serve where they did, the characteristics of each of them that were like the other must have been, at least at some level, the result of choices they had made in the past, both chose not to date, etc. Even if God prompted or led them to any of those things, they had to choose to follow that prompting. I fully believe that God influences, but does not control.
"Having said that, I believe that God is in complete control and has a plan for everyone. He knows what everyone is going to do and who everyone is going to marry. If we make a wrong turn somewhere, He can work through those circumstances for the better."
If God is in complete control, how can a "wrong turn" ever happen? And I'll ask again, exactly how specific is His plan for us? Is it so specific that He wants me to choose one color of socks over another? Also, knowing is not the same thing as causing. I suppose I'm a bit of an Armenianist here, which I know conflicts significantly with Calvinism (don't misunderstand though, I'm not a fully fledged Armenianist, just closer to it than Calvinism). My knowing my brother will get up for work tomorrow does not mean I caused him to do so. Even if I could see the future, or even experience all time as one, it does not necessarily (and here I mean "necessarily" in the philosophical sense) mean I cause.
"If we do decide to marry someone on a whim, or for romance, if we trust in Him and seek guidance, He will make it turn out for the better."
I completely agree that God can and does work with bad situations to produce good from them. However, if God is in complete control, how is it possible for us to marry on a whim - to marry against His will?
Perhaps I am completely misinterpreting your stance, and if so I apologize for wasting your time, haha. If I haven't, I would greatly appreciate your thoughts.
Also, I would recommend to you Gregory Boyd's idea of a Warfare Theodicy. While I don't agree with everything Boyd says, his ideas in regards to a warfare worldview in contrast to what he terms a blueprint worldview are excellent. |
|
Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 4:56 PM |
|
Like I said, the pastor believes we have no free will (I don't know his reasons, though I'm sure they are good ones). I don't necessarily believe that, I just lean that way, however slightly. I personally believe that we do have free will (I don't see how it could be any other way, but I've been wrong before), but I think God is in more control than we might think. As a side note, I recently debated the position of Arminianism in a symposium (I don't actually hold to Arminianism, though). God allowed evil to come into the world and allows evil to flourish, so that it may be even more amazing when the redeemed are sent into heaven. Now comes the great debate about predestination. Why does God elect some and not others. I don't pretend to know God's mind, but as a school textbook, we are slowly reading through Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem. If God wants something not to happen, He can stop it, and He can work through our sinful desires, and work through us, even if we are not willing sometimes. This does not make Him a belligerent God, but a good God. Some people say that election and reprobation are "not fair." To this, Wayne Grudem says:
1) "It would be perfectly fair for God not to save anyone." Everyone is sinful, and therefore deserves to go to hell. If God does save some, this goes above and beyond the call of duty by extending grace to even some.
2) When people say that God should have saved everybody, we are imposing our human idea of justice and equality on God. We cannot know His mind. However, we are not saved by anything we do, because we were "dead in our trespasses." God's love is unconditional. God did not "see into the future" to see who would be saved, but He chose us out of our sin to be His, and we should rejoice in that. Also, we should preach the gospel to the whole world, so that the elect can hear the word and be saved. |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 5:06 PM |
|
| By the way, Wayne Grudem is a Reformed Baptist, if you wanted to know. |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 5:13 PM |
|
| Oh, I forgot to ask, do you believe in predestination, at all? What about any of the points in TULIP theology? |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
Aaron
Posts:3
|
| 06/01/2009 5:29 PM |
|
"If God wants something not to happen, He can stop it, and He can work through our sinful desires, and work through us, even if we are not willing sometimes."
I am just curious to know at what point God does stop things He does not want to happen. I know there is no definite answer, but I am wondering what people think. |
|
|
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 5:54 PM |
|
| He can stop it any time He likes before it happens (even though He is outside of time). It all depends on the situation, I guess. This is probably one of those things we can ask Him in heaven, along with all of our other soteriological questions. |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
Aaron
Posts:3
|
| 06/01/2009 6:08 PM |
|
After re-reading my question, I realize it could be put better. Sorry! What I meant to say was how does God chose which choices to stop and which to proceed uninhibited?
|
|
|
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 6:17 PM |
|
| God can see all of time at once, so He knows what the outcome of everything will be. If someone makes a certain decision, He knows what the outcome will be, good or bad. So, I guess, He stops the situations that have ultimately bad outcomes, and allows the ultimately good outcomes (even if they don't seem good at the time to the person). |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
JoJo
Posts:1657
|
| 06/01/2009 6:36 PM |
|
Um actually I'd like to know how forward is too forward... just for example, with guy #1, I didn't wanna be too forward, so I txtd him every 4 days... instead of 24/7 lol. and idk, but maybe that was too forward... cuz he'd only reply for a while, then not reply at all (and yes, i know guys don't realise that if they don't reply the girl can think that he's ignoring her, even if he isn't...)
and like guy #2, I'd tell him whenever I was in his town, so if he was available we could catch up.
so yeah, were those situations too forward (I'm only friends with these guys atm, and I'm not really interested in #1 anymore... but I'm also trying to not get all absorbed with #2 and trying to figure out if God wants us together before anything happens between us, if something ever does happen...) Just thought I'd put that in... cuz yeah, it would be good to know what "too forward" was!  |
|
Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
|
|
Noames23
Posts:42
|
| 06/01/2009 9:06 PM |
|
| Yeah, I guess we got a little off topic. heh heh.................... |
|
~Naomi Kaye |
|
|
David
Posts:499
|
| 06/02/2009 2:38 PM |
|
First, another response to the original topic (this is aimed mostly at Jojo and anyone else interested). The thing about being too forward is that it relies on interpretations of both the one doing and the one receiving. What to you is not too forward may be seen as a "come get it" to a guy (the clothing chapter in FYWO comes to mind). While there are certain extremes on both sides that are obvious - such as, if you make out with a guy, you can't expect him not to think you're interested, but if you slap him hard across the face, call him a dirty scumbag and tell him to get away from you, he really has no right to think you are interested - most of the typical, middle-ground relies on interpretation. My best advice is if a guy is just a friend, treat him in a friendly way, but don't be overly touchy with him. Give hugs sparingly, and try not to tease each other too much (which can be interpreted as flirting). Certainly be friendly, but always err on the side of platonic. If you wonder if an action is "too forward," it probably is. Now, if he is a guy you are interested in, I fully recommend acting interested. It lets him know that you are, you guessed it, interested. This doesn't mean you should take the initiative and ask him out, but if you like him, and you think he might like you, and you want to date him, well, flirt with him, tease him, compliment him, etc. Don't go so far as to be sexually immoral - don't try to seduce him, don't weard provocative clothing to grab his eye, don't get overly physical with him - but don’t purposefully hide your interest because you want him to do everything. This is just my opinion, however.
Now, I’ll return to the interesting discussion about the nature of God. First off, thank you! I knew I was spelling Arminianism wrong. I’m currently at work, so I won’t be able to write as much as I’d like. But I will say a few things.
Noame23, how do you respond to the following. If God is omnipotent, He could prevent all evil. If God is omnibenevolent, He would do so. The fact that evil exists proves that either God is not omnipotent or He is not omnibenevolent.
As far as pre-destination, I am of the mind that Calvinism has completely misinterpreted it. Their view contradicts other verses in the Bible, which imply a choice in belief. If, as you say, God is outside of time, then He knows all, all at once. In fact, the “pre” part of pre-destination is not applicable to Him, as this would imply Him being adherent to our timeline. Is it such a stretch to imagine that he elects those He does based on their choosing to follow Him? Particularly if He knows all this, all at once. As He is electing them, He knows who will choose Him. Again, there are verses in the Bible that all who are believers will have eternal life. John 3:16 is a good example. This, then, removes the notion that if you are a legitimate Christian, you might still be bound for Hell, simply because you were not elected. The question then is, do we believe only because God caused us to, or do we believe, at least in part, based on our ability to choose? If God forces us, then we really don’t believe at all. We are simply pawns on a chess board. Personally, I believe that God extends something of a “spiritual awakening,” that without we could not choose to believe. However, I believe He extends this to everyone. Given God’s being not adherent to our timeline, I believe our being “pre-destined” is because we will choose one or the other, though “will” is only applicable to us, not to God. To Him, we have already chosen. In essence, He chooses us because we choose Him, though this is through his “offering His hand” (which He offers to everyone, not just a select few). This issue really gets muddled because of our position in time.
The more extreme versions of pre-destination say that God “elects” for Heaven who He will, before we have any say in the matter, and no matter what we choose to believe. This is usually met with a natural sense of “That’s horribly unjust and feels very wrong! Does that not make God cruel?” The common response, as you have given, is simply that we should not question God’s will. This, perhaps, is taken from Paul. And while, as a general principle I agree, it relies on its actually being God’s will. I do not believe it is, and I think our natural negative reaction is proof of this. I believe we react out of the natural sense of morality God has planted in all of our hearts. It feels wrong, because it is wrong. And to say, “it’s God will” is an inadequate response, as that can be said of anything. It removes the need to verify that it actually is God’s will. The Bible is many things, but simple it is not. It can easily be misinterpreted, and often is. The interpretation that yields the greatest amount of congruency is what must be strived for; and the more conservative notions of pre-destination, to me, are not congruent with the rest of the Bible.
Now, this all is a very quick and dirty response. Had I more time and more resources, I could produce a much better answer. However, it must be noted that this issue has been debated for quite a long time, and books have been written from either side. I doubt either you or I will satisfactorily solve this, haha.
|
|
Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|