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Christina
Posts:90
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| 09/17/2009 1:44 PM |
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I do agree that most of those book aren't mainly romance, but there are just as many young girls who fantasize over the couplings that are in HP too. There have been huge arguements over who Harry will end up with for goodness sake. And then to add that J.K. Rowling released a while ago that Dumbledore is gay?!? I certainly cannot condemn one book, and not another when they have the smae issues.
Don't get me wrong I love to Harry Potter books too. But you can't say that those wern't about romance. Snape was in love with Lily, but she married James. Dumbledore was gay and in love with Grindlewald. Hermione used Cormac to make Ron jealous, because even though he like her he was dating and getting seriously physically involved with Lavender. Harry liked Ginny, while she was dating Dean and was physically involved with him.
So while you are right Harry Potter is not a Romance Novel, there is quite a lot in it.
So like I said earlier I cannot condemn this book just because the readers are teen and pre-teen girls, who don't know how to distinguish between reality and fiction.
And another thing. Those other series' like Harry Potter Star Wars and Star Trek are not aimed towards teen and pre-teen girls either. They are aimed toward either adults of both genders ar a much more general audience. So it stands to reason that they were writing to there intended audience too. Adult males won't want to read romance, which is why there isn't very much in it. But young girls eat up the Romance Novels. So it makes sense to put it in there.
Does that make sense. And you also have to take into consideration the parents of these girls that are getting so involved. There are plenty of books out there that are romance novels that aren't as "sadistic" as you say. Such as Redeeming Love. But it isn't as popular.
So yeah... I've totally lost my train of thought at the moment so.. Lol  |
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Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will recieve the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
James 1:12
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Scifi
Posts:68
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| 09/17/2009 4:22 PM |
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I didn't know J.K rowling said that about Dumbledore. From now on I hate the series more than I ever did lol.
I'm still not sure why Twilight can be "porn for girls" but yeah... |
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"The purpose of Christianity is not to avoid difficulty, but to produce a character adequate to meet it when it comes. It does not make life easy; rather it tries to make us great enough for life." -- James L. Christensen
"For a small reward, a man will hurry away on a long journey; while for eternal life, many will hardly take a single step." Thomas a' Kempis (1380-1471)
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Scifi |
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clare
Posts:952
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| 09/17/2009 4:35 PM |
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| Ya David speak up! You'e just like my sis... a thoery for everything and good at explaining yourself! I usualy forget my train of thought before I'm through typing |
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David
Posts:499
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| 09/17/2009 5:01 PM |
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All right, here we go. Before I start, I apologize if I offend anyone. I'll probably just write this in one sitting without giving it too much of a re-read, so I apologize if it ends up disjointed.
But couldn't you say the same about tons of other series' also? Harry Potter? Star Trek? Star Wars? People go to conventions dressed as their favorite character and have discussions about what happened before the events in the book happened or after. Isn't that the same thing?
First off, let's not blaspheme the amazing awesomeness that is Harry Potter by mentioning it anywhere near Twilight.
To answer your question, no, they are not the same thing; not by a long shot. My critique of Twilight isn't simply the fact that the fans love it so much; intense devotion, love and enjoyment of a fictional story is fine (as long as it doesn't become idolatry... more on that in a minute). My problem with it is how, through the aforementioned devotion, the stories affect specifically girls (as that, as you say, is the target audience).
The Twilight series is a romance series, meaning romance and romantic themes are the majority of what you find in the books. To explain where I am going, you must first understand a basic principle of human (romantic) nature. We are all born with a naturally developing desire for the opposite gender - specifically, for a romantic relationship with the opposite gender. This is a good thing that God designed. However, what happens in real life is that people assume that because the desire is natural (as in, no one had to teach them to desire a romantic relationship) the knowledge of how to go about conducting such a relationship is also natural. That is blatantly untrue. The proper way to go about a romantic relationship is as much a skill as anything else, and as such must be taught, learned and practiced. We are not born with the innate knowledge of how to appropriately date and be married to someone. But here's where things start going downhill. One major critique of the Church I have is that they don't really start addressing the specifics of a romantic relationship with people until, often at the earliest, pre-marital counseling (by this point the couple will have set up the entire foundation of their dating relationship and subsequent future relationship). Of course, we are romantic beings well before we ever start dating (in fact, we start dating because we're romantic beings), which must mean that we are receiving romantic instruction from somewhere. I realized one day that the biggest source of romantic instruction was actually chick flicks / romance novels / etc, by simple virtue of really being the only thing that, on a large scale, shows different ways a romantic relationship can work. These forms of media are mostly aimed at women, therefore affecting women the most, who then affect the way men are. Most of you girls will have grown up watching Disney princess movies, moving onto chick flicks. What you probably don't realize is that these movies have been determining, at least in part (sometimes in full), your romantic expectations.
All right, if you grasp that, we can continue. Twilight, being a romantic series, will have romantic themes to teach. My problem with the series is that nearly all the romantic themes in the books are absolutely horrible. In short, these books are teaching generations of females exactly the wrong things to do and expect. Bella is a weak, looks-obsessed girl who is far too attracted to an idealized bad boy (who wants to literally eat her).
None of the other series you mentioned are predominately romantic, therefore making them not nearly as significant when talking about cultural romantic influence. I will briefly address Harry Potter, as it, perhaps, is the most romantic out of the bunch. The difference between Harry Potter and Twilight when it comes to romance is that Harry Potter fairly accurately (if perhaps a bit innocently) displays typical teen romance for what it is: shallow, short-lasted and futile. In the end, the characters end up in mature, adult, appropriate, loving romantic relationships with strong, capable women and honorable men. The end product of the romances in Harry Potter are romances to be emulated. The exact opposite is true of Twilight. As I said above, the romantic themes in Twilight are horrendous (and, since romance is the main point of the series, more apt to affect our culture).
who don't know how to distinguish between reality and fiction
Our brains do not know how to distinguish between reality and fiction. It's the only way we can actually enjoy fiction. Further, mass (and only) exposure to bad romantic themes will only result in people with bad ideas about how to go about romance.
I'm still not sure why Twilight can be "porn for girls" but yeah...
I will give you two general criteria I use to determine what is pornographic. These criteria were born out of trying to understand why porn was immoral.
1) It warps one's expectations of how a romantic relationship should be conducted.
- Many things are included in the conducting of a romantic relationship, from the sexual part to the wooing part.
2) If one is in a relationship, indulging in the material is unfaithful.
- This relies on the premise that to indulge any part of your romantic self outside of its God-ordained place - your future spouse / actual spouse - is, by nature, unfaithful.
Those two are fairly obvious to see when considering what is typically called porn. I realize that I did not include sexual stimulation as a criteria for porn, and that is because I don't believe it is. To say that it is wrong for a man to look at porn because he finds it sexually stimulating is to say that it is wrong for a man to find a woman sexually stimulating. Obviously, it's not wrong, therefore rendering sexual stimulation a moot point (though, as a counterpoint, romance is far more of a sexual stimulant to women than is visual stimulation... and what deals with romance? chick flicks and Twilight).
As far as how those criteria are applied to Twilight....
1) I hope I have already expressed how Twilight is a horrible damaging romantic influence on women everywhere.
2) The books, being romantic in nature, play on (or stimulate) the romantic part of a girl or woman. That's the whole point of the books; that's their draw. They are appealing to the romantic part of a girl. However, if a girl is in a relationship which requires her to be romantically faithful to a guy, then to allow herself (or to seek out) to be romantically stimulated outside of that relationship - even by a book or story - is, by its nature, unfaithful.
Now, we must differentiate between when romance in a story is unfaithful and when it's not. I think the difference lies in if the romance is the main point or not. In Harry Potter it is not. In Twilight it is.
I hope that helps explain why many of us have significant problems with Twilight.
The Robert Pattison quote really increased my respect for him.
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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David
Posts:499
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| 09/17/2009 5:08 PM |
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(as long as it doesn't become idolatry... more on that in a minute)
I forgot to address this. Real quick, how do we determine if something is actually idolatry? Well, idolatry is when you put something before God - when something becomes more important than God. What does that look like? To me, it would look like when something is causing you to act in ways that go counter to God. God designed romance, and it is through His design that proper romance must be conducted. What I mean by that is that the right way to go about dating and marriage is to go about it in the way God wants you to. Twilight influences girls towards a romantic path that very much goes against God's intended path. In this way, Twilight is perhaps idolatry.
The above is more theoretical than down pat. However, even if it isn't true, Twilight is still very bad.
To close, has anyone even paid attention to Meyer's prose? She can't write to save her life! It was one of the worst written books I've ever had the misfortune to read. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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clare
Posts:952
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| 09/18/2009 8:00 PM |
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Yeah I didn't agree with every single thing you said...we've already hashed out the men and porn one already. But everything else is very good!
This is kind of a random side note and I can't remember where I read it, just my luck someone probably said it on here. TV commercials are always trying to sell something. If it's selling cars they get men's attention by having an immodestly dresses woman on the commercial...if it's selling perfume to women they have appealing music and an "ideal man" in an "ideal setting" and thus catch the woman's attention. That same thoery is what is used in books or novels. If they want the girls emotions involved they describe the setting they feelings and the looks. It's easy to get sucked into that!
Having grown up in a setting with no TV or movies for several years and now starting to get back into that, I have a fresh look at things and how people are effected by it all. Take a girl who wants to save her kiss, save sex, and not fling dating, and let her watch a bunch or chick flicks and read cheap books, before long she doesn't see what's wrong with kissing, next she won't see what's wrong with dating any cute guy, it's a step at a time. I'm watching my friends do it and honestly I'm fighting keep my self out. I already got into two ooops relationships I lost the kiss I wanted to save. What if that man isn't going to be my husband someday? I hope he will be, but right now he's an ex..Big regretful oops. I'm not blaming all this on novels or flicks, I personally had to make the choice, but I do know things really changed when I started watching flicks, to the point where I'd watch tv during the time I had set aside for years as my Bible time.I realize this is all just my personal experiences, maybe other girls aren't like this. |
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JoJo
Posts:1670
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| 09/20/2009 2:29 AM |
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LOL just saying... I'm so over debates about books  lol
but I agree with you Clare.
I actually can't read a romance novel or watch a chick flick without getting invested in it... and then feeling like dirt afterwards cuz I dont have THAT in real life... and then I start thinking no one likes me... sometimes.
It messes with girls minds...
Me personally, I dont like Twilight, Harry Potter, or anything like that...
I fully support, however, Narnia cronicles, Red Wall, LOTR... but yeah... I don't tend to read anything written by self proclaimed witches or wizards or anything that goes against what the Bible says, which I believe the former do... I'm not gonna start a debate on my oppinion, cuz quite frankly I'm so over debating atm and probably won't reply to a debate hence why I haven't replyd on this topic for ages...
I dont like harry potter cuz it's kinda like trying to make "good wizards" seem good... and it is written by a self proclaimed witch and boarders on witchcraft... and yet I know alot of Christians who still read/watch it... but that's up to you and God...
and I don't like twilight cuz, vampires are icky unless they're all like dracula, which was kinda cool and you could kill them by shoving a wooden stake through their heart... and cuz it's fakeyfakey love and I wanna puke when I see girls being so obsessed about it etc.
I tend to read books written by christians, who are actually christians, cuz at least then you know your not filling your mind with trash... and yes, sisterhood of the travelling pants was o.k. but it was trash too... thankyou I don't need to know about who slept with who lol.
Sorry if that was confusing. |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
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God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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David
Posts:499
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| 09/20/2009 10:05 AM |
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I'm not trying to debate or anything here, but I do have to say...
JK Rowling has never said she was a practicing witch. In fact, she is a practicing Christian, and her faith played a huge part in how the story turns out.
**SPOILER WARNING (if you haven't read the books and ever plan on it do not read what I'm about to say)**
In the end of the story, it turns out the whole thing has been one big allegory for Christ.
**END SPOILER WARNING**
Had she not used the word "witchcraft," all Christians would hold those books up as prime examples of good, Christian literature, right alongside Narnia. The problem is people hear "witchcraft" and assume it's the immoral kind, when in reality it does not at all resemble the type of magic Christ spoke against. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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